Author Topic: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org  (Read 5007 times)

Offline Mr. Beast

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[WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« on: October 20, 2011, 12:43:36 pm »
Some time ago I was asked to do some tilesets for OpenGameArt.org, now I was asked to do some more.

The old ones:
http://opengameart.org/content/cave-tileset-0
http://opengameart.org/content/sewer-tileset
http://opengameart.org/content/worldmapoverworld-tileset

WIP of the desert tileset:


CC is appreciated.

Edit: I actually had finished this one. I just didn't want anymore critique on it so I didn't post it here.
http://opengameart.org/content/desert-tileset-0
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 11:49:42 am by Mr. Beast »

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 04:22:38 pm »
I like the idea of these tiles, and what they could be, but the execution is a bit rough, a lot of technical issues hinder this piece.

The main problem for me is the banding. The rocks making up the cliff are so anti-aliased into themselves that they look too blurry and soft, instead of rough and rugged. In your shading technique there also seems to be a lot of random pixel placement. In the top middle of the cliff, there's a lot of vertical streaks that don't really fit into the rock structure. There's also some jaggies, especially around the top sand platform of the cliff.

Color is another problem that hinders this piece. The colors are too basic, and flat in terms of saturation, making it bland. There's high contrast between the cliff and the sand which is good to establish depth. But the problem here, is transition between that sand and cliff. IE, you have some grey AA on the bottom but not at the top of the cliff (though I understand it's a wip). I would drop that grey and go for a darkish orangey beige color. For the browns of the cliff, I would look into hue shifting for more dynamism. Browns can easily regress into reds and purples and progress into yellow.

The whole cliff wall is monotonous, in order to increase the illusion of depth, try to accentuate the sides of the walls (as well as the planes of the rocks, which seem muddled.) Depending on the lightsource, make one side darker, the main side neutral, and one side lighter. It looks you already tried this to an extent, but it should be more clearly stated. Also, I would curve the sides of the cliff more, or even make them rough diagonals because right now it looks too blocky.

As for the sand, it's good that it's low saturated, so the sprites don't get washed away in endless detail. Sand is a difficult texture to capture. I think studying old snes games like Seiken Densetsu 3, and Chrono Trigger can visually answer the idea better than I can articulate it.

I would say, that this is a good start. It reminds me of Romancing Saga 3's desert, which is another game you should study, as well as some of the desert landscapes in the Legcay of Goku series.

Hope this helped, sorry I don't have any visual examples/edits, but I tried to explain everything well enough. Also it would help if you showed sprites, or how some of this tiles, like the sand or the middle part of the cliff.

Offline surt

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 04:17:02 am »
I know realism isn't necessarily the goal, but I certainly think you look at some references and take more from them.


More.

In a dry desert there are two main shaping forces: more hoizontal errosion from wind-blown sand, more vertical weathering from thermal expansion.
The sand and rock should be more or less the same material so they should be closer in colour.

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 11:09:49 am »
Thank you for your comments guys.


Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 08:36:44 pm »


The vegetation is for the oasis, so it's what is near water. (Just didn't do the water yet ::) )

Offline pistachio

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 11:01:04 pm »
On the rocky wall: Looks like all you did was up the contrast. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to help with telling what's walkable and what's not. Or rather, it might, but turn out to be very distracting. Aside from that it, doesn't look like desert rock very much... The rocks from the reference photo have more of a layered appearance, and are generally lighter in color. Yours doesn't have to be lighter however. The distinct coloration makes things easier to tell apart.

I think I should demonstrate. Be back with an edit!

On second thought surt's edit shows another good way to go about it, while retaining a style similar to yours.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 08:15:19 am by pistachio »

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2011, 08:08:18 pm »
New: Water


And some little testmap:

Offline surt

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2011, 01:32:12 am »
Quick cliff edit:

Made less brown.
Hoizontal striations.
Vertical cracks.
Sand sitting atop small protuberances.
No high-frequency rounded forms.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 01:35:08 am by surt »

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2011, 12:29:49 pm »
Sorry, but that looks just plain horrible. I don't get what problem you are trying to solve.

The only problem I currently see with my version is that it looks really repetitive if tiled even though there are variations (There are two 32*16 tiles which can be combined arbitrarily.). But I think I can solve that by using less, bigger rocks so it's not recognized by the human eye just as a big complex mess.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 12:40:38 pm by Mr. Beast »

Offline surt

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2011, 01:36:26 pm »
Sorry, but that looks just plain horrible. I don't get what problem you are trying to solve.
...
The only problem I currently see with my version is that it looks really repetitive...recognized by the human eye just as a big complex mess.
::)

Offline ptoing

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2011, 02:48:57 pm »
The problem with yours is that it does not look like rock. Looks like piled and dried dung more than anything.

Not an edit, but something I made a while ago.
Maybe it helps.


There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline jams0988

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 05:04:28 pm »
Quote
Sorry, but that looks just plain horrible. I don't get what problem you are trying to solve.

The only problem I currently see with my version is that it looks really repetitive if tiled even though there are variations (There are two 32*16 tiles which can be combined arbitrarily.). But I think I can solve that by using less, bigger rocks so it's not recognized by the human eye just as a big complex mess.
Hahahahahah. ='D
His looks a good deal better than yours, you know? Both from a general aesthetics standpoint and by looking much more like a rock wall than yours. Like ptoing said, yours doesn't look much like rock at all; I wouldn't call yours dung, but it looks more like wrinkled up tissue paper than rock. I'd be pretty happy having Surt's in a game of mine, while I'd definitely send yours back to the shop for some retooling (or more likely, a complete redo).

If I were you, I'd take another good look at Surt's edit. ;)

@Ptoing: I like yours a lot, but the gradient fade to darkness seems a little unusual. Do you have a screenshot of these tiles working with a background and such? It's an interesting style, and I'm curious about how it looks in a complete scene. Reminds me a bit of Contra or Metal Slug, which is a very good thing. =)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 05:16:21 pm by jams0988 »

Offline ptoing

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2011, 07:45:03 pm »
I don't have a proper screenshot, but it was intended for a sidescrolling game, just like MS or Contra indeed.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Online Phlakes

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 12:40:45 am »
Remember that rock gets shaped by erosion. The big, lumpy, sharp-angled mess you have now doesn't look like it was naturally shaped, but like ptoing said, it looks like it was piled up, and the highlight heavy shading makes it look a bit too much like dung.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 12:44:19 am by Phlakes »

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 02:15:10 am »
Much deko.

Tileset: http://files.spell0r.de/ArtStuff/PixelDump/desertV5.png

I will redo the whole cliff tiles, though more because I didn't really thought through how I organize the tiles, the way they are now they make it pretty much impossible to compose some pretty cliffs with it.

jams0988:
If you don't have anything useful to say then please let it be, thank you. (Or "fuck off" if you prefer.)

Offline surt

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 02:58:28 am »
jams0988:
If you don't have anything useful to say then please let it be, thank you. (Or "fuck off" if you prefer.)
That is altogether uncalled for. He's not the one being uncivil.  ::)

Offline jams0988

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 03:29:11 am »
Quote
That is altogether uncalled for. He's not the one being uncivil.  Roll Eyes
Right? Thanks, Surt.
Besides, I thought my post was pretty useful, anyway, Beast. I was letting you know that your tiles *do* look bad, no matter what you'd like to believe. Sadly, even with the advice of myself and others posted here, you're still using your dung-walls. Feel free to keep telling people like Surt that his edits are horrible, though. Continue telling honest people like me to fuck off. Keep right on ignoring any criticism of any kind. And stay a low-level artist forever!

Or just admit that you were wrong to shrug off so many critiques. It'll sting at first, but a few years from now, you'll thank yourself for it when your art is miles better than it is now. =)

And now that I've critiqued your attitude, onto your art:
The palm tree leaves are way too small - real palm leaves are pretty wide. Right now it looks like you have palm trunks that have had their tops removed and replaced with small shrubberies. The grass tufts you have right now are the same exact size as the palm leaves you have going on, which makes this error even more apparent. Your water is super desaturated, which makes it look like muddy swamp water, instead of the crystal clear "mirage" type water I'd usually expect in a desert setting. Speaking of the water, the way the grass tiles into it is a little strange looking to me. On top of all this, all of your items are strangely sized in relation to one another, which makes it hard to determine the scale of things. Are you making any character sprites for this, or not? I think it'd help you to have a "human" sprite to judge sizes on for everything else. You might be going for that old style of RPG graphics, where the sizes of everything make no sense in relation to each other, but that's usually on overworld maps, whereas this looks like it's supposed to be a playable area, especially since the cliff walls look so huge, and the dunes in the sand are so shallow. Something to think about.

All that said, I like the general color scheme you have going on, and the set on the whole is pretty easy on the eyes, even if it's nothing spectacular looking. It's also nice of you to be giving away art to free-art sites.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 03:48:11 am by jams0988 »

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 11:38:35 am »
Please let's avoid a confrontation here. Mr.Beast, if you don't like some critique you're getting, feel free to ignore it at your own risk. You don't have to tell anyone that their edits or suggestions aren't helping you. Keep in mind however that if you ignore most of the critique you're getting here, there will not be many repeat helpers, nobody likes to see their effort go to waste.

Jams, please don't armchair moderate on pixelation. I know it's hard, but ignore rudeness where you can and if you can't, pass your grievance along to a moderator. Keep in mind that although you're in the right here, your tone is adversarial, almost flame-bait. Again, the best retort to someone being ungrateful is to stop helping them. You cannot teach people manners on the internet, you can only choose how much you allow them to interact with you.

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 02:19:59 pm »
Helm:
Don't worry, I just wanted to make clear that he has overstepped a certain border.

That is altogether uncalled for. He's not the one being uncivil.  ::)
Not? Oh yeah, travestying a statement by laughing one's ass off on it and criticizing unfinished artwork without giving hints how to improve it is totally civil. It took me quite some time to digest that critique and what came out was almost 0 sustenance. The point of "constructive" critique is that it helps the artist to improve their art, if it doesn't it isn't constructive. There is a point for non-constructive critique, but thatís after a piece is finished, for example for judging reasons. While a artistic process it just does nothing but hampers...

If you took offensive what I said then I am sorry, it wasn't meant to be.  :'(

Edit:

First sketch for the new layout for the cliffs.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 06:04:40 pm by Mr. Beast »

Offline jams0988

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2011, 12:39:46 am »
Quote
Jams, please don't armchair moderate on pixelation. I know it's hard, but ignore rudeness where you can and if you can't, pass your grievance along to a moderator. Keep in mind that although you're in the right here, your tone is adversarial, almost flame-bait. Again, the best retort to someone being ungrateful is to stop helping them. You cannot teach people manners on the internet, you can only choose how much you allow them to interact with you.
Sorry, Helm. Next time I'll tone it down a bit. Flagrant disrespect for critique has always been a shortcut to my temper, but I'll try to watch it for the sake of everyone else next time someone pisses me off, heheh. :P
Quote
Not? Oh yeah, travestying a statement by laughing one's ass off on it and criticizing unfinished artwork without giving hints how to improve it is totally civil. It took me quite some time to digest that critique and what came out was almost 0 sustenance. The point of "constructive" critique is that it helps the artist to improve their art, if it doesn't it isn't constructive. There is a point for non-constructive critique, but that’s after a piece is finished, for example for judging reasons. While a artistic process it just does nothing but hampers...
Are you talking about my latest critique? I thought it was straight-forward enough...just resize the palm leaves, and make sure all of your objects are proportionate to one-another.
As for your latest sketch, the texture still doesn't feel quite right. It looks even more like wrinkled up paper now, or maybe tree bark. Again, I'd study the edit Surt did for you, as well as the reference photos that were posted. The textures that were posted for you have all been sharp, angular, and large/flat shapes. Everything you're posting is much bumpier/noisier/organic looking than it should be. Work with big, flat shapes, at first, then add a little texture later.

Also, as a few people have already mentioned, your cliffs should be around the same color as your sand, since they're made of the same material. Just changing your cliff colors to the sand colors would probably help a *lot* with making them look more like cliffs instead of trees, if you want to try that first.

Also, one more thing to try: sketch out your cliffs with a pencil, first. And then try copying your pencil sketch when you do your sprites. I think you're focusing way too much on the texture/color of your sprite, so you're losing sight of what you actually want to draw - you said earlier that your problem was that your sprite "looks like a mess, and needs to use bigger rocks" so that it's less noisy looking, but your cliffs don't even have any rocks at *all* in them now - you've switched over to all noise instead!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:46:36 am by jams0988 »

Offline Mr. Beast

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2011, 02:36:55 am »
Quote
As for your latest sketch, the texture still doesn't feel quite right. It looks even more like wrinkled up paper now, or maybe tree bark. Again, I'd study the edit Surt did for you, as well as the reference photos that were posted. The textures that were posted for you have all been sharp, angular, and large/flat shapes. Everything you're posting is much bumpier/noisier/organic looking than it should be. Work with big, flat shapes, at first, then add a little texture later.
The sketch was more to get the tile layout I need. The structure is still very incomplete, it's just the basic structure, I didn't add any features yet.
Here is a little update on it:


Take a look at these pictures:
http://www.winsoftware.de/screenshots/big/grand-canyon02.jpg
http://www.geo-reisecommunity.de/bild/regular/352115/Grand-Canyon-North-Rim.jpg
Do you see the big vertical patterns on the straight faces? Those are kinda my reference. There is more to a cliff/canyon, but in tilesets you have to simplify and especially in 16x16 there isn't much place for multiple structural details.

About the flat & angular thingy: keep in mind that the structure of rock is quite depended on the forces working on them. In deserts you have quite strong winds which make the rocks more round. Maybe you should take a look at the reference image that were posted here yourself, the rocks you see there are almost all round.
::)

Quote
Also, as a few people have already mentioned, your cliffs should be around the same color as your sand, since they're made of the same material. Just changing your cliff colors to the sand colors would probably help a *lot* with making them look more like cliffs instead of trees, if you want to try that first.
Don't you think I already tried that? It simply looks way too dull. By the way the highlights of the rocks have the same color as the sand, take a look at the previous cliff tiles, it's what makes it blend that nicely together at the top.

Offline jams0988

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2011, 03:06:46 am »
Quote
About the flat & angular thingy: keep in mind that the structure of rock is quite depended on the forces working on them. In deserts you have quite strong winds which make the rocks more round. Maybe you should take a look at the reference image that were posted here yourself, the rocks you see there are almost all round.
It's true that the structure of rock is very dependent on the forces working with them, so I don't know why you're using cliffs from the Grand Canyon as reference for your cliffs in the middle of the desert - they don't look like the same type of rock, and I doubt they were formed the same way. Not many rivers in the desert, after all.
And yes, you're right that the desert reference previously posted had round rocks, but they're still round in big, chunky forms, whereas yours is round in small forms, giving it the noisy look. The newest one is an improvement, but it still looks too noisy to be tough rock that was shaped by sand blowing around and such. It looks more like a dirt wall to me that's been shaped by water running down it and stuff. Again though, the color could be playing a part in that.


Again, notice that the ground and the cliffs are the same color. And notice how un-detailed the rock walls look compared to yours.
And you can't say it's impossible to make cliffs that share the same color as the ground around them; ptoing and surt did it just fine, and that's the way they look in real life. You'll have to just keep plugging away at it if you want to make it look as good as possible, hahah.  :P

I might try an edit for you tomorrow, because it's something I should be able to draw, too, heheh.

Offline Seiseki

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Re: [WIP] 16x16 Tilesets for OpenGameArt.org
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2011, 03:45:59 am »
Just skimming through the thread, I thought the last one was a tree trunk.

Looking at most of your tiles, I think you're doing everything too small..
Something I do a lot as well.. Try to use larger features, otherwise it turns out very noisy.

I also think the rocks should be around the same color, but darker. Possibly slightly warmer/saturated.