Author Topic: [WIP]Trees related  (Read 11023 times)

Offline micintexp

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[WIP]Trees related
« on: November 21, 2009, 08:43:18 pm »
Hey Hey Hey pupils.

Its me again showing another new tree I made.

This time I have done it in cs 4.

Wich I have used small brush size and few dark tones and so.

Here's my new tree version.



Let me know what you guys think.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:27:54 am by micintexp »

Offline QuaziGNRLnose

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Re: Second Try
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 08:56:07 pm »
this isnt pixel art! from the looks of it you used brushes with auto AA. pixel art just cant be done with these kinds of tools! almost everything you need you'll find in paint alone!
Originally posted by Jeff

I AM A GIANT DONUT MANATEE

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 09:43:28 pm »
1st:

2nd:
I just can't understand how to shade right lol.

The problem is I can't realy understand how you can acualy picture it that there's light shadows and all there but after messing around I think im starting to figure it out.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 10:34:16 pm by micintexp »

Offline circuscommando

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 06:57:28 am »
with such a small scope of colors, i don't think 5 is necessary for the leaves alone, 3  or 4 would do.  Get some dithering in, right now the entire thing is pillow shading.
he hobbles and hobbles.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2009, 10:51:53 am »
Hmm I have acualy use more colour probably because the colour I used was way to low opacity but will fix it :P.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 06:59:19 pm »


Another try.

Offline QuaziGNRLnose

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 07:06:19 pm »
your never gonna get realistic shading when you're mirroring your work at the final stages like that
Originally posted by Jeff

I AM A GIANT DONUT MANATEE

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 07:14:34 pm »
Well hers looks cool.

http://sererena.deviantart.com/art/Pixel-Tree-52291235

Im gonna retry again tough.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 07:24:20 pm by micintexp »

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 10:01:00 pm »


IM not recieving any critiques anymore...

Comon pupils I need to improve v,v'

Offline Gil

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 10:12:43 pm »
Stop mirroring. It doesn't look good on your tree and it doesn't look good on the tree Sererena made either.

I do see improvement though. You'll need to search for another green though, this one is such a generic neon green.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 10:23:04 pm »
Atm im making another tree just wait a bit ;)

Edit:



What you think?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 10:34:57 pm by micintexp »

Offline Gil

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 11:00:56 pm »
I think it's mirrored. :n:

Palette is better though.

Offline Tourist

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 12:19:59 am »
I took your first tree and did an edit.  I liked the basic placement you started with, but it needed a lot of work.  I'm not that good at pixel art yet, but I think I can help.

Problem 1: Consistent lighting.

I added a sun to keep track of where the light is coming from.

Problem 2: Black outlines.

I replaced the black outlines around the leaves with the darkest green (as a placeholder).  Then I started to work on the trunk, using the lightest brown where the sun hits (up and left), and the darkest brown where the shadow is (down and right).

Problem 3: Flat branches

The trunk and branches all have the same flatness to them.  On a real tree some branches would come towards the viewer and some away from the viewer.  Branches that come towards the viewer would show a lot of the underside of the branch, so there should be a large shadow underneath.  Branches going away would show a lot of the top of the branch, so more of the light brown color.

Problem 4: Not enough branches.

What you have looks ok for Charlie Brown's Xmas tree, but most trees would have additional branches. I added a few smaller branches and tried to add depth too.  Some should come towards the viewer, some away.  It's harder to do with smaller branches because there are fewer pixels, and some of these may get covered up by the leaves, but it's worth doign well.

Problem 5:  Trunk and branch roots too thin

Most trees are like long cones.  Wide at the bottom and narrower at the top.  The branches work the same way.  There are exceptions (palm trees), but this looked like a normal tree.  This was an easy fix, just widen the bases of the trunk and branches.

Result:



Step 2, the leaves.

Problem 1:  Not enough leaves

Too many gaps in the foliage, and the new smaller branches needed some green too.  I connected the clumps you had.

Problem 2: Inconsistent shading

With the light from above and a little to the left, the different clumps needed better shading.  The leaves also come forward towards the viewer like a dome shape (sorta), so the brighter colors needed to match the dome curve.

Result:


This is ok so far, but there's room to improve.


Step 3: Good enough version

Problem:  Shading incomplete

Shaded the rest.   This was just a lot of filling in, trying to keep the 3d-ness in my head.

Problem:  The dark green outline doesn't look so good.

I tried lightening the outline, and then just removed most of it.

Result:



Step 4: Final version

Mostly more tweaking of the green leaves on the right hand side.  I'm not sure how much of an improvement it is.  There's more work that can be done, like adding some leaves in front of the branches, but I called it good enough for an edit.  Looks a bit puffball-ish, I suppose.

I stepped away for a bit and thought about explaining what I did, and realized the simplest explanation was the two small circles you see in the last pic (brown and green, just under the sun).  Zoom in on those.

Imagine each of these is a sphere rather than a circle.  I took the colors in the pic and put them on the sphere where they would show up given the lighting.  When you look at a pixel on the tree, you can figure out the direction that surface would be facing and use a pixel of the right color.  With only 3-4 colors, the sphere can be small.  More colors would probably need a larger sphere, and the ones I drew don't take into account cast shadows.  Since the parts of the tree are larger than the sphere (like the trunk), where you choose to fill in the different colors defines the shape of the resulting object.



Things not done:
On this piece the shades were all the same hue.  I didn't adjust the colors, but shifting the hues would be a good improvement too.

Hope this helps,
Tourist

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 12:42:32 am »
But oh well I wasn't realy going to continue edit it.

Im not realy a persoon that makes a tree then continue editing it.

I just keep trying to build a new one untill I figure out the trick thats how I do it.

For me myself I have improve pretty fast for 5-6 days on pixel art.

Even so drawing the tree is not that much of the problem,the problem is the shading and adding leaves and all.

Wich is exactly what im trying to practice on and always reach to another failure.

But practices makes your improve yourself wich is what I have been doing and starting to improve alot more :).

And you didn't notice but,in my last tree I don't have the black outlines .

-About the shading adding light and so.

Your example were okay,but Im already watching inside a thread daily on how to make a thread wich is Schrib wich is this thread http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=8291.0.

For now I also started to watch the in-game 2D graphics game on NDS games to study there trees and others.

Tomorow I might start to build another new tree but a better look.


Edit:


Will continue with it tomorow,might aswell change the side.


« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 02:25:35 am by micintexp »

Offline Gnarf

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 08:09:47 am »
sometimes it's tough to go back to a piece you aren't happy with.  but it could really help to go over your mistakes and correct them rather than scrapping it.  i think it would help if you tried to get a working silhouette of the tree first.  i googled "tree" and used one as a reference, not necessarily copying it, just as a reference.  with your silhouette, you can define the object without any details.  if it reads as a tree that's great.  secondly, you can find a balance in your piece using the same method.

i went into mspaint and blocked out a tree with a square brush and then moved on to sculpting the silhouette which is the bottom piece.  you can always add more to a piece, but i'd call that done and move on to details.  that's where you can further clean up the silhouette as you move along.



hope this helps.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 07:07:31 pm »
Gnarf,for some odd reason I can't see your image.

You mind readding that image again.

I will take your advice and study it,maybe your right sometimes.

Because If I watch clearly Schrib did do some edits on the same trees in order to get a better look.

Thanks.

Offline Gnarf

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 02:11:48 am »
it shows up fine for me, i think imageshack was down for a while is all.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 02:28:42 am »
So far the trunk is done.

I have been working on the trunk for few hours.

But Its stil not right in some way.

Im gonna reshade it again.



Edit:





Will continue shading it tomorow.

Might aswell reshade it again because its not going the way I wanted it.

The outline will be removed after im fully done with the shading on the tree and trunk and so.

For now lets call it a day.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 03:08:26 am by micintexp »

Offline Gnarf

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 06:14:58 am »
it doesn't seem like you're really following anyone's critique.  there are no real shortcuts to this, and any that you try to take only look so apparent.  it's not going to just hit you like an epiphany or something.  really take the time to read over the critiques.

as for your current piece, you're rushing into details at an extremely early stage.  there are no rules to going about this, but when things aren't looking right, there are processes you can use.  we've given you some meaty critique, and there are tons more pertaining to trees all over this forum.

it still seems as though you're mirroring, the lines on the trunk stand out to me.  it's nice that you established a lightsource, but save the actual shading until later.  lay down the base colors of the whole tree first.  then move on to toning.  do this in chunks and with as few colors as possible: generally meaning midtones, highlights, and shadows.  start with three colors for those.

i would move into detailing afterwards.  believe me, with a guide and a clean start you won't be scrapping every tree you work on.  when you have a clear cut idea of where you want to go with the piece, you'lll really enjoy it.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 10:10:56 am »
Thanks Gnarf,I will do that when I get back from school :).

But I did say I will reshade it again because its not realy going that well.

I must still study certain trees again,well schrib trees are some good trees that I could study .


Offline boojiboy

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2009, 10:29:16 am »
micintexp - I'm not sure why you wanted your last thread closed. Seems like your still on the same track. But all of the good advice was in that thread and you really need to go back and pay attention to what people said.
But I'll tell you what to do the simplest way I can, and please just try this.

In Graphics Gale or photoshop, or whatever you're using, select a thicker brush than 1 pixel wide. Say, 3 or 5 pixels wide.

Select a brown color, any brown will do for now.

Looking at a reference photo of a REAL tree, draw the trunk. NO OUTLINES! Just with one color, block out the whole trunk.
Do not mirror (actually never mirror a tree, it looks terrible).  Just be loose with the brush and use that one color, NO black outlines and NO shading.


Once you do that, post it here and we can crit it step by step.

At this point I think you're jumping way too far ahead without advice. When someone says you're going about it the wrong way you end up throwing it out and starting again, with all the same (and some new) problems.

Continue your current tree if you want, but just do me this favor and draw a trunk.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2009, 04:33:28 pm »
The problem is I find working with 1 pixel easier for me thats why I don't use 3-5 pixel pencils and so.

Even in my old thread they tell me the same but I know my reason why I can't work with it,I just find it harder then 1 pixel brush.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 04:34:28 pm »
I think the biggest problem with your shading is the way you're interpreting trees.  I mean, ok, nobody (ok, very few people) are going to argue for rendering every twig branch and leaf, especially with a resolution that doesn't/can't lend itself to this, and the typical path is to create the impression.

HOWEVER!

leafy bodies are not solid pillowy forms.  They can't be rendered as though there is a continuous single surface.  Trees are made of a mass of leaves, each one oriented in a particular fashion, and each one in or out of shadow.  cross your eyes at a tree (not so easy in winter I guess...) and see what kinds of general shapes/colors are left and you'll be well on your way.  Observation is key.

Offline CrazyMLC

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 05:02:58 pm »
Copying an edit from another thread...

I'm really bad at explaining but i'll give it a try:
I made the leaves look a little more bubbly, gave them more texture.
I yellowed some of the leaves.
I added in dithering in random places to make the bark look rougher and dryer.
I changed the shading a bit.
I added in some AA.
I made a terrible attempt at texturing the dunes.
I added in some dramatic acting.  ;)

Hope it helps!

See how the leaves look kinda bubbly almost?
You should never try to imitate something, you should only try to represent it the best you can.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 05:09:45 pm »
Is just I always get the shading wrong,I still can't figure out how to shade right o.o.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 06:12:58 pm »


Is this the right way , _, '

« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 06:41:53 pm by micintexp »

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2009, 08:46:14 pm »
Another try again.




Not done shading it.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2009, 10:18:30 pm »
Bleh I just idk how I schould shade it I have been studying Schrib trees but I still don't get it...

And eeven so no one seems to be posting anything to this thread....


Offline Luminous_Reaver

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2009, 02:11:22 am »
Yeah, uh, you only gave us like four hours to say anything. Pixelation isn't some omniscient pixel critiquing super-machine. :mean:

Anyway something's odd about your tree's proportions, I think. The stump's kind of wide so I'd imagine the tree should be taller...but that's not the real issue and it's most likely just my imagination. The real problem is, or it seems to me that you've drawn up a stump and slapped a little leaf bubble on top of it instead of, uh, drawing a tree properly. It doesn't help that you're using the same line art that you used earlier. If it were me I'd start with a naked tree and draw leaf bunches, but I've never done that and Gnarf's method seems quicker and easier. You should probably try that first.

But feel free to totally ignore me.

Offline boojiboy

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2009, 04:08:44 am »
The problem is I find working with 1 pixel easier for me thats why I don't use 3-5 pixel pencils and so.

Even in my old thread they tell me the same but I know my reason why I can't work with it,I just find it harder then 1 pixel brush.


People are telling you to do it for a good reason. It's not meant to be easy. It's challenging but you're not going to learn if you keep dismissing the advice that we're giving you.
Fine, use a 1 pixel brush if it's such a big deal. But please try and block out the shapes instead of drawing outlines. The outlines will be done later! Think of it as coloring in before you do the outline, your shapes will have an outline without having to worry about it.

Can you at least try it?

Offline Gil

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2009, 06:38:58 am »
Here's how it works, you come here and we teach you. You won't go to basketball practice and say to the coach "I don't want to run laps, it's no fun" either.

You can do it your way and you'll get less and less comments. You also won't improve as fast.

So:
1) Don't start a new tree every 5 minutes, work on one till it's perfect
2) Try out the thick brush thing as we explained it, not by using to draw, but to form shapes and colors
3) Don't weasel out of good comments

You don't have to follow my advice, but there it is anyway. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think it's better if I'm honest.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2009, 06:30:20 pm »
Im sorry for more ignorance guys.

Is just as my sister have told me.

I just think im better and all thats why I haven't folow you guys comments.

Thats the worse part of my attitude.

Im always mean to someone and thinks im better then anyone and never take the advices from someone thats why I have never improve yet if im right.

I will now start to work with brush size at 3~5 and see the diffrence and all after im done drawing it I will post it here to recieve C&C.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2009, 08:14:21 pm »
Did you guys ment something like this?


Did it with brush size 3

Offline Rawsushi

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2009, 09:40:38 pm »
Okay. Maybe this will help. Here's how I'd start it:

Step one: Draw the bare tree. Think about what a tree would look like if it had no leaves.


Step two: Draw the back layer of foliage. Here you can further define the look of the tree. Don't worry about the shading or minor details.


Step three: Draw the front layer of foliage. Again, don't worry about the shading or minor details.


Step four: Define the direction of your lighting by casting shadows onto the trunk of your tree.


I think if you can get to this point, it's just a matter of detailing, tweaking colors, etc.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 09:46:54 pm by Rawsushi »

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2009, 10:01:52 pm »
Btw what size you used there?

Offline Rawsushi

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2009, 10:04:12 pm »
What size?

What size brush? I switched between a 1 pixel and 3 pixel brush.

Offline tylerjhutchison

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 am »
I think you should probably stop studying how to make pixel trees... and take a look at how shading works in general, because the rules of shadows and light apply to every medium... regardless of if you are painting, drawing or pixelating.

image taken from: http://studiochalkboard.evansville.edu/s-chiaro.html
This is Chiaroscuro, it is a technique used for properly shading everything.  This is what a sphere with a single light cast on it will look like in REAL LIFE.  You might be able to use this to imagine what other shapes might look like.  OR  You can set up your own examples if you get a light bulb and an object (It is easiest if the object is a solid color so you can really pay attention to the shadows.)  Maybe practice by drawing a still life and carefully concentrating on where shadows go and how dark certain shadows are compared to other shadows in the still life.  After you have played around with this enough, you will be able to just know what the shadows will look like for almost any object.

Think about how these rules for shading might apply to pixels and trees.

Here is an art guide specifically telling you how to draw foliage in chiaroscuro:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2101857_draw-foliage-chiaroscuro.html

If you examine Schrib's trees you will see that they do a pretty good job of following the rules of chiaroscuro.

Also maybe just consider going outside and looking at some real trees. Or using google image search.  Do not be afraid to use a REAL LIFE reference when you are making something.


Offline PypeBros

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2009, 01:09:34 pm »
This is what a sphere with a single light cast on it will look like in REAL LIFE.  You might be able to use this to imagine what other shapes might look like. 
And a second (golden) rule i learnt here is to alter the hue of your object slightly with highlight/light/shadow/reflection.
E.g. shift reflection light to the blues/purple and shifting highlights towards the yellows produce more interesting results than "plain gray gradient" objects. See the squi-bomb in the treasure chest for example. Exagarating such effects move you away from "realistic" into "fantastic" lighting (e.g. Seiken Deikutsu III lightning of trees).
Pixelling School Zone with my own Sprite Editor on Nintendo DS and coding in between . . .

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2009, 02:28:43 pm »
hehehe back on the progress of tree and all.

Where sick these days.

Ok back on topic.

Here's how I draw my stuffs in real life and all.



I finaly could scan them but all of these I have draw this morning I also have draw a isometric house and all wich I will show later.




Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2009, 03:11:54 pm »
When you sketch try using the whole page for your drawing instead of a bunch of tiny little ones. Thumbnail (that is, tiny) sketches are only good for getting the basic layout of something; if you want to really get good at drawing it you have to draw it big so you can see it clearly and you can't hide your mistakes. Also, are this sketches of things from real life or did you just draw them from memory? I ask because they drawings are all very icon-like - a log you would find in the forest, for example, is not a perfect cylinder, even though that's how your mind remembers it. A real log is actually much more interesting. This is why it's good to do studies from life, because your brain has a way of simplifying and compressing things into simple iconic shapes unless you train it otherwise.

I'm not saying every drawing you do has to be copied from life but rather this is a good way to practice so that when you do imagine or invent your own drawings, they'll be much better. You can train yourself to draw things as they really are, not as the simplified, abstract version in your mind.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2009, 03:19:54 pm »
More like I try to draw it from my memory,but I will try to draw as you said.


Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2009, 08:37:42 pm »
Just a question guys , is there a book about pixel art and all.

It would be better if I read it from the books,right?

Offline Gil

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2009, 10:41:30 pm »
There isn't even a decent knowledge base right now, but that doesn't really matter for you, as 90% of pixel art is traditional art study. Try getting a book on sketching which deals with volumes.

The perfect book for you seems to "Fun with a pencil" by Andrew Loomis

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2009, 05:03:31 pm »
it's best to think of pixels as being a kind of paint. Just like watercolor or oil there are a pro's and con's to using it and there are some tricks to get better results. But no matter what kind of paint you use, the more you know about good illustration and design principals the better the results will be. So the better you get at drawing, the better your pixel art will get.

All that to say, there may be some book somewhere about pixel art but it's not the best way to learn. The "tricks" of pixel art are easy to learn but good illustration and design techniques require practice.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2009, 10:57:58 pm »
Here's another try for a tree.

I still can't get it right but oh well.


Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2009, 11:27:02 am »
Okay here's the finished shading of the tree





Offline nickthem

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2009, 11:45:14 am »
This is the pixel art section, you're not exactly supposed to post sketches here, but I'll give you some advice on how to get better at trees and pixelling them: Draw from reference or from life. Not just trees, other still life will help you as well, apples, bananas, shoes, trash cans, etc. You need to definitely learn the basics of art, it will take time for you to improve but I promise it will pay off, you need to go grab yourself an actual sketchbook from your hobby store and some art pencils, I use 6B lead myself, and start drawing things around you. Remember, all pixelling is is just another medium of art, there are no shortcuts to getting better at any kind of art, you just have to practice, practice, practice.

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2009, 12:34:02 pm »
Pixel art comes from your drawing skills in real life like you can use it as a reference, thats why I post it here and see if it's okay or not and redraw again till it reach to a nice looking tree and try to pixel it :D

Offline Gil

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2009, 05:27:07 pm »
Have you tried reading the book I suggested? It's really going to help.

"Fun with a pencil" by Andrew Loomis

Offline micintexp

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Re: Second Try For Tree
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2009, 05:39:48 pm »
The problem is I can't purchase the book.

Even so my dad won't purchase it for me.