Author Topic: [WIP] The Yeti project  (Read 13773 times)

Offline 8bitty

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2009, 08:47:37 pm »
very nice edit helm. evileye take some points from that edit, it is by far the most pleasing to the eyes. you need to work on colour values as the piece looks quite bland as it is. contrast. i also like helms pieces of fur that are coming off.

Offline Opacus

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2009, 09:03:04 pm »
Okay. Show you something of similair or better quality of something done within an hour.
Did you even read Nd's post?

Yep.

Quote
I'll post the link again:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/15981.htm#

Yes I saw it when helm posted it in the creativity thread.

And as I told helm, that is a fairly simple piece and certainly doable within an hour.

Maybe I should have explained it a bit more?

*Note I am not trying to rag on helm here, and I am not saying its a bad piece*

But:

1. The pose is very simple. No wild perspective, Nothing that pushes the limits of pixel art in any way.

2. Mostly 90 or 45 degree angles on the body, which are easy to do.

3. The creature is not based on anything that we are too familiar with, so none of the features have to be very correct. I.e. He can have upper arms that are bigger then the foream and noone will really notice. Same with the head and other parts.

4. Very little muscle definition on the fur, makes for much easier work.

5. No fingers or toes, helm cheated a bit IMO and just wrapped them up and hid them.

6. Lighting is actually pretty sparse, there are some parts that should have a lot better lighting but don't. Again, probably because it was done in an hour.

actually helm agreed with me that it was simpler then the piece I was attempting.

1: No, the pose is not very amazing, I'll give you that. But it serves it's purpose. I like the pose of your yeti more, though.

2: That's a common technique. Since 90 and 45 degree angles don't require AA, it can often make pixel art look better [You can't screw up on the AA after all] and also reduces the work load a bit.
You don't need complicated lines to make something look better. Why complicate things when it looks just as good with a simpler aproach?

3: It IS based on a real creature. It's simply a gorilla with the head of a manta ray. Unlike a Yeti, which is pretty much based on nothing. Though I'd say yours has something of a gorilla.

4: That's actually a big problem in your yeti: He shouldn't have so much muscle definition. The muscles obscure the fur texture, and make him look more like a shiny bodybuilder.

5: Your yeti's toes aren't very prominent either. In fact, especially those on the front arm don't work that well. The whole hand looks a bit seperated from the arm.

6: There isn't alot of lighting. So? That's just a matter of preference. Helm chose to do so so his glowing eyes would be more prominent, and he'd get and overall more menacing look. [That's my interpetation anyway]
The lighting on your yeti is a bit TOO prominent. Fur doesn't glow that much, unless he just got out of the water or something.

I made a colour edit here, maybe it's a bit too extreme, but bear with me here.


I really toned down the contrast. I think it's nescassery here though.
Fur just doesn't glow like that. I also got rid of those strange stray pixels you had going on here.
[Yes, I also think Helm's colour edit is still too high contrast. Too shiny.]

Quote
Very few people have offered any real advice ( except for the edits at the top of this thread ). A lot of the "advice" offered is just arm-chair pixeling and thinly veiled insults.
If you are truly interested Opacus, and if helm doesn't mind, I can point out the flaws in his piece and explain why I don't think its at a similar level to the one I did. I'm sure that would stoke the fires of hell some more, but hey :lol: That is, if your really curious and not just saying this to argue.

No, I'm not here to argue.

Helm's has flaws. Sure it does. But yours also has flaws. It ain't any more perfect than Helm's is.
It's very nice, certainly, but it still has issues.

And I think you just did pretty much point out what you think is wrong with it, right above here, ey?

Quote
Say hello to your seeing-eye dog for me.

Let's keep it civil here please. That's uncalled for.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 09:21:30 pm by Opacus »

Offline Froli

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2009, 09:09:03 pm »
Evileye, you are becoming full of yourself. It's like everyone's post doesn't matter and your ego is getting ahead of you. You are like one of those posters in the past that has gotten banned because of the similar attitude.

And I agree with opacus that helms gorilla mantaray is better.

Btw, the texture of your last rendition of your yeti more like ice/icicles rather than fur.

maybe this artwork by  BigBrother could help.
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/41947.htm
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 09:14:45 pm by Froli »

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2009, 09:23:16 pm »
That's a very pleasing color edit, Opacus. Looking at it I agree mine is too high contrast... there's something to be said about using a selection from the whole value range to an aesthetic result, sometimes i'm so preoccupied with 'covering my bases' I forget that. Stoven also does what you did in his pieces quite masterfully. I think it comes from SNES-type art initially? (I mean the impulse to shelft the values, not that it's not noticed in other art besides SNES stuff, heh)

Offline big brother

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2009, 10:36:55 pm »
Froli: don't drag me into this! :)

I like Opacus' color edit, though I believe it unnecessarily flattens the sprite. A high-contrast character may look out of place when we critique it specifically, but stronger colors will help it read against a background (since I'm assuming this is intended to function on a game register and not just as "pixel art," right?). I would suggest darkening the hindquarters so the arm and head really pop out in front. Darkening the shadow beneath the leading arm and under the jaw would also be a good idea. With higher contrast on its face, it will be easier for a viewer to identify it, an issue inherent when drawing imaginary creatures. It will also help heighten the yeti's expression and inject more personality into the character.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2009, 11:35:01 pm »
Oh, about colors and fur texture, perhaps this edit will help:



This took about 15 minutes, if that interests you.

See now that's what I was talking about. That is a good edit helm. The colors for sure, some of the body work is so-so, but it does give me some ideas. I'll try to put some fur on his other body parts.

That shadow under the chin shouldn't really be there, but it does bring out the face.

I guess I should have messed with the colors a little :blind:

Quote
edit: 'lowlevel' I mean as in dealing with 'low' CG, art that is meant to be displayed at small resolutions, few colors etc, I didn't mean low as in qualifer.

K. Fair enough.

I made a colour edit here, maybe it's a bit too extreme, but bear with me here.


I think your version is a bit too desaturated. Maybe the correct values would be between yours and helms.

Froli: don't drag me into this! :)

I like Opacus' color edit, though I believe it unnecessarily flattens the sprite. A high-contrast character may look out of place when we critique it specifically, but stronger colors will help it read against a background (since I'm assuming this is intended to function on a game register and not just as "pixel art," right?). I would suggest darkening the hindquarters so the arm and head really pop out in front. Darkening the shadow beneath the leading arm and under the jaw would also be a good idea. With higher contrast on its face, it will be easier for a viewer to identify it, an issue inherent when drawing imaginary creatures. It will also help heighten the yeti's expression and inject more personality into the character.

Yes it is for a game. Thanks for the advice.

Well in light of getting some edits I will have to do some more work on this :yell: Thought I was done.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 07:20:08 pm by EvilEye »
But that's just my opinion.

Offline D~Dawg

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2009, 11:45:11 pm »
So...Are you done or what?

Actual Critique:
The shadow under the chin --however-- brings out that he has a neck. :-\

Offline Beoran

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2009, 07:35:20 am »
Well, the only reason I decided to butt into this thread is because I really like Dekutree's effort. With a bit of refinements on the outline, so it also works against a dark background, his Yeti would be a great "boss sprite". :)
Kind Regards, Beoran.

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2009, 09:00:43 pm »
I think the furriness could be brought out moreso in Helm's edit by adding some sort of AA like this, but I don't think this'll work on a dark background.
And I agree that there should be a version between Opacus's and Helm's colour edit and with what bigbrother explained. I'm eager to see more.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 10:00:10 am by Chris2balls »
:B

Offline st0ven

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2009, 03:04:51 am »
Ive read the thread thoroughly enough to follow what has been going on - i was really curious by the proposition of being able to make such a pixel piece rival that of the scaled down cg version.


 - initial block in and shape stage, id say about 30 minutes at this point to get here

i got home and was able to continue


 - adding more form and lighting details - fleshing out some fur texture in choice area. this took me out about another 25 minutes. Far from perfect - but i think from this stage, working on a deadline you could easily have this wrapped up in another 30 miinutes. it should be pretty near pixel perfect in 60 - arguably should rival the original piece in both form and detail as well.

I do think that there was a lot of frustration shown in this piece and i think this came mostly from an unsurety of form / anatomy - Ive read helms take on the situation and while i mildly do agree there seems to be a workflow issue here i think the main conflict is some insecurity over the form. for some reason this is less of an issue for your CG piece, but in the end i think that your pixel piece came out with more interesting shape and structure and i have to wonder if it is because there was more deliberate thought put into the piece in that medium.

I can say that i could generally relate to the frustrations shown in this piece because i will rightfully admit, i still go through this when drawing things particularly that ive had little exposure to in the past. One thing ive really found to help is sketching - all the time. different forms and subject matters. i cant lecture anyone on what they will discover but i can notice a very large difference in my understanding of form and shape in just a few short months of serious study.

I really enjoy this thread because it gives us things to talk about - some personal arguing aside (feels like the pixelation i used to know and love, heh) i think the subject matter is one of the more meaningful ones to be found around here in a while. I think these things should be questioned, in the end, many different people throw in their hand in the discussion and add their artistic pieces into the fold of discussion and it becomes a true community experience. Many people walk away from threads like these with a lot more to think about than the usual0 'help me' post (honestly, nothing against them at all, just want to see more of these types too).

I hope the discussion doesnt die out!

Oh i have almost forgot - i made a quick video of some timelapse progress from midpoint to end point (at least the hour long end point). uploaded the video for you lads to view if you find it curious.

www.spriteart.com/edit/ape_avi.avi

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2009, 12:38:43 pm »

Tried doing the fur, changed the pose slightly, to convey tension, which was already quite present with that heavy fist. I hope it helps, and I do apologise if it's quite sketchy (using graphics tab).
:B

Offline Dex

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2009, 06:20:40 pm »
While your edit conveys fur fairly well, Chris, I find that the edit st0ven did above works the best in my opinion. It keeps a general anatomical shape without losing the fur texture EvilEye is trying to achieve. It also uses colors in a more appropriate way, I'd say.

This thread is quite the interesting discussion though. Many wonderful insights and critiques that can help not just one, but many.

I do believe, however, that you, EvilEye, should have gone about this a different way and instead of trying to prove it's NOT possible to pixel something impressively in an hour- you should have tried to prove that it IS! It seems as if you're trying to set a rule that says 'you can't pixel something worthwhile in an hour.' I dunno. I've still enjoyed your progress and your steps- this thread could be archived for the discussion much less the actual progression of the art.


Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2009, 06:54:22 pm »

Tried doing the fur, changed the pose slightly, to convey tension, which was already quite present with that heavy fist. I hope it helps, and I do apologise if it's quite sketchy (using graphics tab).

That's pretty good Chris. Loses a lot of the form though. Nice letters too :y:

Ive read the thread thoroughly enough to follow what has been going on - i was really curious by the proposition of being able to make such a pixel piece rival that of the scaled down cg version.


 - initial block in and shape stage, id say about 30 minutes at this point to get here

i got home and was able to continue


 - adding more form and lighting details - fleshing out some fur texture in choice area. this took me out about another 25 minutes. Far from perfect - but i think from this stage, working on a deadline you could easily have this wrapped up in another 30 miinutes. it should be pretty near pixel perfect in 60 - arguably should rival the original piece in both form and detail as well.

I appreciate the edit.

I was intending to tackle it a much different way which could be the reason some people don't agree it would take so long.

Here is where I was intending to go with the fur ( and actually what I am working on now with my edit ):



The colors probably still need some tweaking. Palette tweaking is one of my weak points :blind:

As you can see, I may have bit off a little more then I can chew here, its going to take a lot of reworking. But it can be done :y: I am pretty sure.

Helms edit actually surprised me a bit. I never thought of doing it quite that way. And it does look good. Too many 45 deg angles for my taste though.

Quote
I do think that there was a lot of frustration shown in this piece and i think this came mostly from an unsurety of form / anatomy - Ive read helms take on the situation and while i mildly do agree there seems to be a workflow issue here i think the main conflict is some insecurity over the form. for some reason this is less of an issue for your CG piece, but in the end i think that your pixel piece came out with more interesting shape and structure and i have to wonder if it is because there was more deliberate thought put into the piece in that medium.

If I had known beforehand I would be attempting something this precise I would have done a much better sketch and solidified my ideas a lot more.

The thing is, this was only supposed to be a common enemy. Now its the best looking sprite in the whole game :lol:

I made the lines and started to realize just how many flaws I was up against and fixing them was no easy task. Then I changed my mind quite a bit about how I wanted it to look. In the end I salvaged what I could and it came out a lot better.

Then of course the fact that I was trying to prove a point forced me to push the quality level up even higher, which demanded even more reworking. >:(

Quote
I really enjoy this thread because it gives us things to talk about - some personal arguing aside (feels like the pixelation i used to know and love, heh) i think the subject matter is one of the more meaningful ones to be found around here in a while. I think these things should be questioned, in the end, many different people throw in their hand in the discussion and add their artistic pieces into the fold of discussion and it becomes a true community experience. Many people walk away from threads like these with a lot more to think about than the usual0 'help me' post (honestly, nothing against them at all, just want to see more of these types too).

I am glad you enjoyed the thread, I was beginning to think all I did was start a flame war. Apparently I came off as bragging to some people, which I might have done a little of admittedly, but I thought some people would be interested to see how someone with my style does a sprite, along with all the potential pitfalls you can run into. Most the sprites I see here are cartoony / anime style, so I figured it might be a bit of a change to show how a more ( traditional? / realistic? ) style sprite is done. Plus I wanted to show some people why I didn't want to pixel that sketch I showed in the OT / Creativity thread.

Quote
I hope the discussion doesnt die out!

Well the flames might start flying again and we could get another few pages :lol:

Quote
Oh i have almost forgot - i made a quick video of some timelapse progress from midpoint to end point (at least the hour long end point). uploaded the video for you lads to view if you find it curious.

www.spriteart.com/edit/ape_avi.avi

Thanks, I'll have a look

*Just remembered, in case anyone is curious, here is the background this sprite will be on*

« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 07:17:21 pm by EvilEye »
But that's just my opinion.

Offline Dr D

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2009, 08:48:06 pm »
Nice, but where does the Yeti's purple backlighting come in at? It doesn't seem to make any sense as far as I can tell. You'd probably be better off losing it completely or changing it to a blue tone.

I do enjoy the way you were intending to go with the fur, though.

Offline #36005A

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2009, 09:01:40 pm »
Just a speculative observation here, but I think the purple backlighting may have come from the bright/fully-saturated pink that EvilEye has been using for his working background. Notice how Opacus' edit edges away from the purple side and more towards the green side of blue (working on dark green) and st0ven's edit gives the yeti a low-saturation yellow backlight (working on gray).

If his background isn't going to change much, I suggest you start working on a background color that's closer to the actual background he'll appear on, if that's possible.

Offline Dr D

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2009, 10:30:18 pm »
That's a very interesting observation, and I bet there is some truth to it.

It interests me to know about how our mind subconsciously works, especially whilst one is creating art.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2009, 11:58:46 pm »
I am glad you enjoyed the thread, I was beginning to think all I did was start a flame war. Apparently I came off as bragging to some people, which I might have done a little of admittedly, but I thought some people would be interested to see how someone with my style does a sprite, along with all the potential pitfalls you can run into.

Of course it is interesting, this thread is, as noted, full of interesting aspects of character creation, and I'd love to see you post more walkthroughs to how you make your art.

However if you've realized a few problems of communication you have induced what would be best in my opinion is if you also came with some apology. Besides insulting me personally with your flippancy and constant unfounded assumptions of braggery (even if I couldn't make a good piece at this size in an hour, that could be a miscalculation on my part and not an attempt to impress anyone... who do I have to impress? I've worked commercially on piece-completion estimation rates where these miscalculations on the side of extra speed actually would cost me money, heh) - while I was trying to help you, no less - you kinda uh, insulted the whole forum a few times with those remarks about how 'nobody has given me decent crits yet'. I mean, even if that's the case and critique you received wasn't usable/useful to you, and I agree this can happen, especially when someone is pixelling at a certain level and is very set in his mind about what he's trying to achieve, people went out of their way, spent their free time to help you, it's a really proactive thing, a wonderful thing in my opinion, and it always deserves respect. Even when help is not useful, it should be appreciated, don't just tell people 'nope, this doesn't help!'.

I don't mean to start more arguing with this, quite the opposite. Any of my hurt feelings have been mended by the inbetween time and also because the resulting art looks good and that reaffirms the positive use of Pixelation no matter the bickering, so I don't really need you to tell me anything, but the rest of the forum, man... Like that line about 'how it was worth it because it riled a few people up', that's straight up trolling.

Offline Scribblette

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2009, 12:41:16 am »
^
|

My ASCII sucks. That aside, new shagginess looks appropriately spectacular. Kudos.

Hoping to get some time this week to give it my own little shot. :)
Now reading: Animator's Survival Kit, Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain, Fun With A Pencil. No time to pixel!
Pixelated Anatomy|Foliage

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2009, 08:52:10 am »
I think there should be more contrast between the spikes of fur, especially on his head/hump. I'm not sure about that black outline...
In my edit I tried to draw the player's attention on mainly the torso and arms, and shading everything superfluous such as the legs and rump black (more or less), upping the contrast in this aspect. However, after seeing your background I can't see this working as the light seems pretty ambient. But with a white background like that, my idea for fur AAing can work (minus that black outline ;) )!
Waiting for more (and possibly a feature in the news box).
:B

Offline Conceit

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2009, 02:19:00 pm »
Well O_O  couldnt resist and took my own stab at this...I kept the pallete pretty minimal...and focused mostly on integrating to the bg.
I didnt clock it but it was atleast 2 hours and 15 mins..maybe half an hour more.That's without counting the time I took to sip up all the ref I could...on that note...here's some walking gorillas =) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItE4FQU784&feature=related
 The reason for the small pallete is I wanted to make it reasonably animateable at first...but then I just went a litle too fur happy for that :p

EDIT: whoops...I had promissed a ref but I didnt post it :-[...bad form :p

« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 04:50:06 pm by Conceit »

Offline st0ven

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2009, 04:18:50 pm »
conceit: (weird calling you that, heh) -right on! i think that even keeping it simple, you have the most 'fur like' appearance even in minimal form out of all the takes so far. it feels very natural, still pixeled but has that painted look to it. I think your relatively low contrast really helps to keep this illusion.

I think plopping a sprite on the background illustrates something kindof important - even though snow is 'white', it would appear there isnt enough fo a contrast between any slops or valleys or any distinguishing traits about the snow in the foreground - which makes the main focus of the eye the tree layer which is the midground, and it looks unsettlingly empty between the mid layer and the sprite layer with all that dead 'white'ness.

id have liked to have taken my stab at it again knowing the character better now on this background as well to see what i could come up with, but i suppose theres little point after conceit's attempt.


Offline Conceit

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2009, 04:40:35 pm »
Steve...you never did get used to the new screename did ya? heh...I was kind of on a ego-destruction obsession at the time...sometimes I wish it was a lil more positive  :blind:

You really think my version is such a be all end all? well...I'm flattered
I obviously didnt because I kept working on it for a while :p...but the progress is so subjective even I dont know if it's any better at all. I tend to be on the slowpoke side like EvilEye here...and I think that may ruin things on many occasion...it's a matter of knowing when to let go..cause sometimes you want to achieve EVERY little idea that crosses your head and there's just no picture that can contain all that and still be cohesive....I know I've worked some pieces to utter fuglyness :P it's a matter of knowing when to let go, knowing when you're starting to lose your fresh and you're pouring more frustration than joy into the piece...

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2009, 10:26:14 pm »
I am glad you enjoyed the thread, I was beginning to think all I did was start a flame war. Apparently I came off as bragging to some people, which I might have done a little of admittedly, but I thought some people would be interested to see how someone with my style does a sprite, along with all the potential pitfalls you can run into.

Of course it is interesting, this thread is, as noted, full of interesting aspects of character creation, and I'd love to see you post more walkthroughs to how you make your art.

However if you've realized a few problems of communication you have induced what would be best in my opinion is if you also came with some apology. Besides insulting me personally with your flippancy and constant unfounded assumptions of braggery (even if I couldn't make a good piece at this size in an hour, that could be a miscalculation on my part and not an attempt to impress anyone... who do I have to impress? I've worked commercially on piece-completion estimation rates where these miscalculations on the side of extra speed actually would cost me money, heh) - while I was trying to help you, no less - you kinda uh, insulted the whole forum a few times with those remarks about how 'nobody has given me decent crits yet'. I mean, even if that's the case and critique you received wasn't usable/useful to you, and I agree this can happen, especially when someone is pixelling at a certain level and is very set in his mind about what he's trying to achieve, people went out of their way, spent their free time to help you, it's a really proactive thing, a wonderful thing in my opinion, and it always deserves respect. Even when help is not useful, it should be appreciated, don't just tell people 'nope, this doesn't help!'.

I don't mean to start more arguing with this, quite the opposite. Any of my hurt feelings have been mended by the inbetween time and also because the resulting art looks good and that reaffirms the positive use of Pixelation no matter the bickering, so I don't really need you to tell me anything, but the rest of the forum, man... Like that line about 'how it was worth it because it riled a few people up', that's straight up trolling.

Wow, did I really insult the whole forum?

I know I meant to insult some of the forum...

Well regardless, I hereby issue an apology for the offending comments on my part. It seemed to me like some people were just posting flames or bragging, which is why I was saying they weren't helpful.

Well O_O  couldnt resist and took my own stab at this...I kept the pallete pretty minimal...and focused mostly on integrating to the bg.
I didnt clock it but it was atleast 2 hours and 15 mins..maybe half an hour more.That's without counting the time I took to sip up all the ref I could...on that note...here's some walking gorillas =) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItE4FQU784&feature=related
 The reason for the small pallete is I wanted to make it reasonably animateable at first...but then I just went a litle too fur happy for that :p

EDIT: whoops...I had promissed a ref but I didnt post it :-[...bad form :p



Interesting take conceit :y: Almost looks like a statue.

Still working on my own version.

Getting hard to judge the progress because of all the detail. I've done several makeovers only to throw them away. At this point it's hard to see what's a real improvement vs something that just makes it different.

But that's just my opinion.

Offline Conceit

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2009, 11:10:13 pm »
Uhm O_o spent about twice as much time on it.

Again....I think the old one was good enough to go...for the goals I had for it...I just felt like tinkering for the hell of it.


Evileye: I think that's a sign that it's time to stop working on it. if you're just making and scrapping versions over and over for no practical reason you're probably overthinking it...remember it's just an enemy sprite that has to look sufficiently good to represent it's adequate level of menace to the player and fit the themes of the game...no more. No need to be so picky on a simple enemy sprite, be this picky on the main character's design or the main gameplay mechanic or whatever.Forget what you wanted this sprite to become, this sprite becomes what it has to become...if you keep idealizing your original intention you'll end up with a mangled mess of inconsistency and end up frustrated anyway because art just doesnt turn out exactly like you want...and it doesnt even really matter that much...I find when I look back on pieces that I was this anal about I find them extremely neurotic and sort of nonsensical. You yourself said there's something you want to communicate that's "beyond the medium" wether that is the case or not we cant tell you, only you know exactly what you want and you feel you cant make that happen.....so just take it pretty close, make it give a sense of what you wanted to happen and let it go.

PS:
I know I said you should stop...but that's because I see you working directionless...I, as usual have a completely different direction I think you should take your sprite in....so I'm posting it here for the sake of education :p totally dont expect you to swallow this whole just chew it over and play with it in your mouth before you spit it out  ??? :crazy: hopefully it hits you like a bunch of coca leaves and next time you work on something you subconsciously follow my logic  :-\  :huh: :D

I fear that your use of that black terminator shade was rather killing the depth because it's so ubiquitous...you did improve a bit by darkening his right arm BUT now that you've started using white on his legs you went one step forward and two step backwards cause it has gotten even flatter...I believe if you want to keep working on this you should forget about that idealized texture you have in your head, you should fix the posture and the depth...your posture looks quite unnatural.

here's some ref....and check the YT video on the last post...look at how the gorillas handle themselves, specially their butt ;p
I think you lost A LOT of composition goodness on the translation to sprite and this is usually the case in Pxtion...he feels like he doesnt really know wether he's moving or resting or what, mostly I chalk it up to the back leg being so static...it just doesnt seem a pose a gorilla would assume when walking...also his stomach and just all of his torso looks like it's some weird impossible shape as if you're trying too hard to make his pecs and his belly look a certain whay while forgetting about making him a coherent 3d figure. Maybe you should make a little clay model of him and test out wether you can make a symetric belly and take a photograph that looks like what you have...I wouldnt bet for ya if you did.


it doesnt help that your lighting is making his butt seem as if it's on the same plane as the shoulder...you can look at my version for my idea of a good distribution of lighting in that ambient of ubiquitous  radiant light (maybe look at some polar bears which was what I had in mind).

 Personally I believe in your first steps you should completely forget the sketch, first step is blocking out a sillouethe and pay attention to the basic shapes both negative and positive, just creating some interesting composition with a good dynamic feeling and fitting posture for the character. After that you block in with some 3-4 shades (I intented to post this step but I wrote over it) if everything is in it's own plane and it's got good volume stick to that general plan of lighting for the rest of your time on the piece. Otherwise you end up in lighting hell reworking each little knick knack in the sprite because you are indecisive about having a distinct lightness zone for each part OR making everything super clear and detailedv
(I noticed you are there because you just darkened that right arm even though that meant sacrificing some detail....you're not satisfied with your original lighting plan) it's like making a development hell out of a single sprite.

Once you have that blocked out add some buffer shades for the sake of texturing and proper coloring...but dont go batshit obsessive about it....just give a general sense of fur or whatever texture you have, the player doesnt really care wether you achieved the fluffy fur or the 50's fur and really when you're further into the project neither will you.

Aside from that I'd just tell you to integrate the guy into the game...I remember you have posted a few sprites before (I dont know if for the same project) and I think they each had a style that was fairly independent from the style of the last one...I believe you could get away with making this guy practically white by making him polar-ish(which is obviously what I would go for) just for the sake of integrating him with that pure white background...Ultimately it's your place to decide how much he should stick to the general atmosphere of the game and how much he should be tailored to this specifical BG but make sure you are thinking of him as a small part of the entire game and you are not overly focusing on some ideal quality you had in your head while drawing him.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:35:18 am by Conceit »

Offline miscdude

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2009, 03:03:09 am »
I'm very happy about your newest changes. It looks like you finally broke those nasty formed outlines to actually make it look like fur and it looks far better. I believe the clumps work better than individual hairs given his surroundings, because if you look carefully at the polar bear reference you can see that the hairs are less fizzy and open(?) which is likely caused by snow/water.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2009, 05:43:51 pm »

Evileye: I think that's a sign that it's time to stop working on it. if you're just making and scrapping versions over and over for no practical reason you're probably overthinking it...

The same thought had crossed my mind... I am almost done though, not to worry :y:



Well? What you think?
But that's just my opinion.

Offline snowsoft

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2009, 06:45:11 pm »
This whole thread has been awesome.

EvilEye, the yeti looks great, but that fur on his chest looks strange to me. The placement of the black on the left side gives it an appearance of the fur coming out of a hole in his chest almost.

A quick edit to show what I mean.


The black being moved to the left feels and looks more consistent with the lighting you have going on, in my opinion.
“Everyone sees what you appear to be, few experience what you really are.”
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Offline big brother

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2009, 07:50:01 pm »
Is this sprite going to be animated?

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2009, 09:03:50 pm »
This whole thread has been awesome.

EvilEye, the yeti looks great, but that fur on his chest looks strange to me. The placement of the black on the left side gives it an appearance of the fur coming out of a hole in his chest almost.

A quick edit to show what I mean.


The black being moved to the left feels and looks more consistent with the lighting you have going on, in my opinion.

Its difficult to tell but I think you're right.

Is this sprite going to be animated?

:lol: :yell: :blind:

No, all the sprites are static in the battlemode.

What do you think big brother? Is that back leg too messy or does it look ok to you?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 09:06:06 pm by EvilEye »
But that's just my opinion.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2009, 10:22:55 pm »
I'm not big brother, and certainly no where near this good. But! It does look a little messy to me. In fact, it even looks incomplete. Compare the lighting on the top (middle?) of the leg. Shading it a bit more like the center of the main arm perhaps might be a better choice. Right now it looks like he has a hole in his leg. Plus, it appears that there is two light sources for that section, which is a bit confusing. Otherwise, excellent improvement over the original I'd say.

Small off topic bit, highlight to see: Whenever I think of yeti or bigfoot, I always think back to that old movie, "Hairy and the Hendersons".

Offline big brother

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2009, 10:41:51 pm »
When I saw this latest version, I thought it looked fairly detailed and refined. Then I remembered you saying that this was for a game. I immediately imagined animating it, secondary motions on the tufts of fur, maybe even some sub-pixeling. I broke out in a cold sweat. Good to hear (for your sanity) that this is a static sprite!

The mauve-colored secondary lighting almost looks like radiosity due to the magenta. As far as defining the shapes are concerned, it looks odd when on the edge of an internal shadow (like on the shins). You have some dithering on the quad, but I don't see you use it anywhere else. This iteration is definitely a huge improvement over the original. It seems like you're more committed to a specific direction with this sprite.

The style of combining comic-book inking with AA and shading reminds me of these sprites:
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Supes.png
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Bats.png

Offline Indigo

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2009, 10:51:40 pm »
hah, did you know those are st0ven's sprites, big brother?  I didn't know people ripped those already.  I saw him working on these at work

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2009, 03:14:21 am »
When I saw this latest version, I thought it looked fairly detailed and refined. Then I remembered you saying that this was for a game. I immediately imagined animating it, secondary motions on the tufts of fur, maybe even some sub-pixeling. I broke out in a cold sweat. Good to hear (for your sanity) that this is a static sprite!

The mauve-colored secondary lighting almost looks like radiosity due to the magenta. As far as defining the shapes are concerned, it looks odd when on the edge of an internal shadow (like on the shins). You have some dithering on the quad, but I don't see you use it anywhere else. This iteration is definitely a huge improvement over the original. It seems like you're more committed to a specific direction with this sprite.

The style of combining comic-book inking with AA and shading reminds me of these sprites:
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Supes.png
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Bats.png

Nice superhero sprites :y: Those animations look great.

I guess all the heavy black shadows is what makes my sprite look comic-book style. Usually I don't do that ( I think ??? ) since I prefer a lighter look.

Personally I am not a big ditherer. I do it sometimes and it just bothers me so I add another color or something. Or use it in a way that makes it look like detail.


Well I think I am done with this, even though there is still something that bothers me about that back leg.

Here is my last edit:



I did a portrait but this time wasn't pixeled. I think it came out fine really, no need to put myself through hell again this time.



Found almost the perfect reference on google:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/chris_6713/yetiref.jpg

Here is the progression in case someone is interested:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/chris_6713/pprogress.jpg


And here is what it all looks like in-game:




Phew :blind:

In all seriousness if someone really can pump out something like that in an hour, I would be interested to see how you do it.



But that's just my opinion.

Offline st0ven

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2009, 04:23:06 am »
Phew :blind:

In all seriousness if someone really can pump out something like that in an hour, I would be interested to see how you do it.

- I would have really liked to see you expand upon or explore the direction conceit was taking. It feels very natural in the painted environment that you did. He couldnt do it in an hour but he was able to do something really quite nice in a couple hours and i think that putting in that extra 90 minutes of spitshine or so in ones work can really make the difference between getting something done to make progress, and getting something finished to its full potential as a piece of art.

commenting on your game mockup (i know this might be a little off topic from the original intent of the post but it sort of ties back into it in some way in my head - i think). I think the background is nice enough, it gets its point across, and i think the sprite looks quite nice, and the knight sprite looks competent (i personally dont care for his shield by comparison, looks a good bit flatter than the metal in the armor), but the elements, thrown in with the style of HUD elements youve thrown in, none of them really seem to fit into place with one another, so the game screen looks rather disconnected as a result. The purples youve chosen for your yeti seem much more conducive to an icy cave or at night where the light reflects softly off the snow or something. If youre not up for redoing the yeti again which id completely understand, id at least consider studying the palette choices to have it more cohesively match its environment?


The style of combining comic-book inking with AA and shading reminds me of these sprites:
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Supes.png
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/Feb8/SBHU_Bats.png

note to BB - i have higher resolution versions of those if youre ever interested in checking them out send me a PM or something. The style was very purposefully chosen to mimic an inked illustration youd expect to find in a comic - i do quite agree now that you brought it up, particularly in EvilEyes most recent rendition with the shadows punching so dark as they do so abruptly.

Offline r1k

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2009, 05:13:55 am »
I have to agree with st0ven about the different elements in the mock up not matching stylistically.  Mainly because of the "heavy inking" on the sprites, yet the softness of the background.  Aso the cripness and sharpness of the sprites with the relitivly fuzziness of the background.  And while it could just be cause I dont know what the games actually like, but there seems to be alot of unused space in the screen.  The trees also just seem to big too me, compared to the sprites.  I mean I guess they could be very large pines but something about them makes me see them more as smaller pine trees, and the fact that theyre in the distance makes me feel they should be a bit smaller.  It could be because of the way the trees bend and tip over a bit.  I think taller trees tend to be more straight, as a very tall pine bending like that might tip over (? or the trunk is thicker so the weight of the snow/leaves doesnt bend the trunk), and the pines/leaves start higher off the ground, but then again Im not a tree expert in the least.  I like the yeti though.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2009, 12:25:48 pm »
Phew :blind:

In all seriousness if someone really can pump out something like that in an hour, I would be interested to see how you do it.

- I would have really liked to see you expand upon or explore the direction conceit was taking. It feels very natural in the painted environment that you did. He couldnt do it in an hour but he was able to do something really quite nice in a couple hours and i think that putting in that extra 90 minutes of spitshine or so in ones work can really make the difference between getting something done to make progress, and getting something finished to its full potential as a piece of art.

I agree conceits version works a lot better with the background, but I am totally out of steam on this piece, I couldn't redo it again if I had to. I'll save what I've learned for the next one.

Quote
commenting on your game mockup (i know this might be a little off topic from the original intent of the post but it sort of ties back into it in some way in my head - i think). I think the background is nice enough, it gets its point across, and i think the sprite looks quite nice, and the knight sprite looks competent (i personally dont care for his shield by comparison, looks a good bit flatter than the metal in the armor), but the elements, thrown in with the style of HUD elements youve thrown in, none of them really seem to fit into place with one another, so the game screen looks rather disconnected as a result. The purples youve chosen for your yeti seem much more conducive to an icy cave or at night where the light reflects softly off the snow or something. If youre not up for redoing the yeti again which id completely understand, id at least consider studying the palette choices to have it more cohesively match its environment?

That's no mockup, that's a screenshot from the real thing. The HUD is one of those semi-temp things just to get something there, but you're right it doesn't look that good.

The knight was done a while back when I was still learning to use a wacom. It's also not pixeled.

The purple highlights might not be right for this terrain but I will probably use this sprite for another terrain also. The old RPG palette-swap / reuse-sprite trick :y:

I have to agree with st0ven about the different elements in the mock up not matching stylistically.  Mainly because of the "heavy inking" on the sprites, yet the softness of the background.  Aso the cripness and sharpness of the sprites with the relitivly fuzziness of the background.  And while it could just be cause I dont know what the games actually like, but there seems to be alot of unused space in the screen.  The trees also just seem to big too me, compared to the sprites.  I mean I guess they could be very large pines but something about them makes me see them more as smaller pine trees, and the fact that theyre in the distance makes me feel they should be a bit smaller.  It could be because of the way the trees bend and tip over a bit.  I think taller trees tend to be more straight, as a very tall pine bending like that might tip over (? or the trunk is thicker so the weight of the snow/leaves doesnt bend the trunk), and the pines/leaves start higher off the ground, but then again Im not a tree expert in the least.  I like the yeti though.

The unused space is for the other enemies / allies, there are a total of 9 squares on each side. 9 enemies and 9 allies max. The bigfoot is on the front line in the middle. The AI puts him there.

The style differential is a problem, but there's not much I can do. Sometimes I pixel stuff, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it turns out good, sometimes it doesn't. I do the art more as a break from programming then anything. It's more entertainment then work, so a lot of times I'm experimenting. But in the interests of time I can't redo things to make them look consistent.

If you think the trees are too tall in on this background, you should see my swamp :lol: I've got bushes as big as both those sprites :blind:
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:30:00 pm by EvilEye »
But that's just my opinion.

Offline Mike

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2009, 09:08:16 pm »
I would just like to say I enjoyed your tutorial style writing and how it used neat little things like the slot machine.  I loled heartily!  :lol:

One thing though...I feel like your sprite could be rotated to the right just a bit because it looks like it's off balance, its driving me nuts.

Here's an edit with the rotation I suggested


Offline Ryumaru

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Re: [WIP] The Yeti project
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2009, 05:30:41 am »
That portrait could be better done in pixels in little less than an hour...

JK

In all seriousness, I believe the black outline is making the yeti ( who is well done imo btw) stand out a bit too much from the knight, and most likely any other sprites that weren't pixeled. Sel-outing ( the helm way, not the old tsu way) would help a lot. I'd be interested to see what this will look like with the  hud and other elements finalized.